Posts by jonathan dough

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

jonathan

Perhaps, are trying to say that jesus is different than the other godmen?

Err, umm, yes, along with 2 billion other Christians.

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

JD II: I don't want to read too much into your post, but I don't think the mere fact that some men in history claimed to be God-men, or that others regarded them as such, in and of itself proves that Christ was not God-man.

Satanus: No, it doesn't. But, i find it interesting to see jesus in the big picture.

Unless one believes that He indeed performed those many miracles and rose from the dead. In that event, I don't think he falls into that category and is not part of that big picture.

40

"My God and My Lord" Ps. 35:23 - Need OT version

by jonathan dough in

when thomas said "my lord and my god," he used the exact words that david used at psalm 35:23 with reference to god, writing, "awake, be vigilant in my defense, in my cause, my god and my lord," (rsv, nab, kjv and green's literal translation).

"lord" here is translated from the hebrew adonai used exclusively of god.

thomas would never have used these same words when addressing the risen christ if he were just a man.

jonathan dough

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

The Trinity was one of the truly cruel philosophies to entrap humans-

You still haven't answered how this doctrine of the Trinity entraps humans.

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

The Trinity was one of the truly cruel philosophies to entrap humans- Love me or I will toruture you for all eternity.

I don't think you have the slightest clue what the Trinity actually teaches and it is not what the Society tells you. That is a fact. Furthermore, I don't see how a philosophy, i.e., this doctrine, in and of itself can lead to such terrible things. It is a theory, a theological concept that explains the nature of God and Christ. Why don't you enlighten us on how this "philosopiy" has entrapped humans. You aren't making any sense.

Look at the history of the Trinitarians over the past 1800 years,

Now you are switching horses in mid-stream. So is it the doctrine you have issues with, or the people who claim to be Trinitarians? If the latter, then you better take a closer look at the Governing Body of JWs because you're claiming guilt by association. And if that is the case then you don't want anything to do with the WBTS due to a shocking degree of molestation and other nefarious conduct, not to mention other unseemly behavior which as lead to 40,000 JWs (or more) being disfellowshipped yearly. As far as comparing behaviors, give the JWs 1,800 years and then come back and talk to me. I'm sure they'll catch up. You need to educate yourself in this regard. I'll help you. Spend some time here.

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

The doctrine of the Trinity is a doctrine. It does not kill and maim. If you have a problem with Catholics, take it up with them, but don't blame that on a theological concept.The trinity deals with the three-fold, triune, nature of God, among other things.

JD II

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

The Trinity was one of the truly cruel philosophies to entrap humans- Love me or I will toruture you for all eternity.

That translated itself into humans feeling justified for bringing war to millions and millions, torturing others, even members of their own belief system.

How so? Can you explain your comment? How does such a theological belief lead to these horrible things? Can you back it up? Or is this just an opinion of yours? Do you understand the Trinity doctrine? Can you explain that to us?

50

Could WTS Become a Mainstream Religion?

by OnTheWayOut in

i read threads about reform and needed changes.

i don't like the idea.

i personally think that a harmful dangerous mind-control cult should not find some way to moderate slightly to keep their membership.

jonathan dough

Impossible. Not within the realm of possibility. Not even close. They would have to turn upside down.

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

JD, Actually, the acepteance of the Trinity is NOT a basis for slavation in the RCC , well at least not according to RCC, it is crucial, in their view, to understanding the relationship between God, Jesus but it is not needed for ones "salvation".

I have to disagree with you on this and I'll explain why. In short, according to the Cathechism of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) belief in the Trinity doctrine is not only professed but is mandatory. Technically, one cannot be Catholic and not believe in the Trinity. It is inseparable from the unity of the church. In fact, it is so much a part of the faith that to deny it is to deny being a Catholic, and catholicism is their means to salvation. I don't think most people understand how central this doctrine is to Christianity. But this does not mean that "understanding" the Trinity in all of its intricate detail is necessary. If that were the case few would gain salvation.

'The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains; "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained," (Catechism, 234). "The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the "hierarchy of the truths of faith." The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men "and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin"' (ibid., 69, 70).

Economic Trinity is inseparable from salvation. “Economic” refers to “divine management of earthly affairs” (The Encyclopedia of Religion [New York, Macmillan Publishing Company, 1987], 54) (Encyclopedia of Religion). “It is oriented to the concrete history of creation and redemption: God initiates a covenant with Israel, God speaks through the prophets, God takes on flesh in Christ, God dwells within as Spirit” (ibid., 54). It is also called revelatory Trinity because the triune God reveals himself through his dispensation of salvation (Trinity and the Kingdom, 151).

"Before receiving the [baptismal] sacrament, [Christians] respond to a three-part question when asked to confess the Father, the Son and the Spirit: "I do." "The faith of all Christians rests on the Trinity."(Catechism, 69). The Trinity is at the very root of the Church's living faith..." (Ibid, 74).

"The ultimate end of the whole divine economy is the entry of God's creatures in to the perfect unity of the Blessed Trinity." But even now we are called to be a dwelling for the most Holy Trinity," (Ibid., 77, 78). "By the grace of Baptism "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," we are called to share in the life of the Blessed Trinity..." (Ibid., 79). "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity," (Ibid.).

So as you can see, the Catholic church's belief in the Trinity is fundamental and essential to salvation. It defines God's work of salvation, His economic mission with respect to redemption.

"The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the world's largest Christian church and claims over a billion members, representing approximately half of all Christians ..." (Wikipedia). Among Protestants (defined loosely) "There are "over 33,000 denominations in 238 countries" and every year there is a net increase of around 270 to 300 denominations.[7] According to David Barrett's study (1970), there are 8,196 denominations within Protestantism.There are about 800 million Protestants worldwide,[8] among approximately 2.2 billion Christians." (Wikipedia).

Based on these figures, then, Catholics represent a majority of Christians, or close to it, and therefore belief in the Trinity (not complete understanding) is a prerequiste to salvation for most Christians. How many Protestant denominations feel the same way? Hard to say, but if anyone has those figures I would like to see them. I would suspect it is substantial given the fact that “Although a few distinct doctrinal changes were eventually made, the Trinitarian concept emerged relatively unchanged. “The Reformers,” states the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, “stood upon the ground of the Church catholic” in this matter. This meant, for many of the new-born Protestant groups, not only continued adherence to (and propagation of) the form of Trinitarianism advanced by the Athanasian Creed, but also - in many cases - actual approval and acceptance of the Catholic-spawned Creed itself” (Concepts, 14; in accord see the New Bible Dictionary, 1299-1300).

I hope this helps.

Regards.
http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#trinity-home

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

In view of the the surrounding prevalence of beliefs in godmen, there was pressure on budding christianity to create their own godman. I found this article which lists many of them:

Examples of divine kings in history

See also: sacred king

Some examples of historic leaders who are often considered divine kings are:

I don't want to read too much into your post, but I don't think the mere fact that some men in history claimed to be God-men, or that others regarded them as such, in and of itself proves that Christ was not God-man.

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

If you can show me where they say it is needed for salvation I would greatly appreciate it.

I'm not near a library right now but will look into it for you.

JD II